00001

01 CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

01 *******************************************************

02

02 PLACE: SC School for the Deaf and the Blind

03 Swearingen Conference Center

03

04 DATE: Tuesday, July 14, 1998

04

05 TIME: 7:05 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.

05

06 PRESENTATION

06 GIVEN BY: Jim Truelove

07 Project Manager

07 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

08 Charleston District

08

09 Karl Blankinship

09 Corps of Engineers

10 Engineering and Design Center

10 Huntsville District

11

11 BOARD MEMBERS

12 PRESENT: Joseph L. Crissinger

12 Ed Y. Hall

13 Gary Hayes

13 William B. Littlejohn, Jr.

14 W. Brownlee Lowry

14 George D. Mullinax

15 Gerard Perry

15 Robert W. Powell, Jr.

16 Stonewall J. Stewart, Jr.

16 James B. Thompson

17 Sherry Wheeler

17 Darwin J. Wilson

18 BOARD MEMBER

18 NOT PRESENT: Conley McIntyre, Sr.

19 David Mullinax

19 Clary H. Smith

20 Sanford N. Smith

20

21 ALSO PRESENT: Suzy Cantor-McKinney

21 Project Manager

22 Zapata Engineering, P.A.

22 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104

23 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204

23

24 REPORTED BY: Sandy Satterwhite Reporting

24 (864)574-1455

00002

01 INDEX

02 Welcome by Ms. Suzy McKinney . . . . . . . . . . . 3

03 Election of Chair. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

04 Status of Removal Actions at 00U6. . . . . . . . . 7

05 Old Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 101

06 Certificate of Reporter. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 116

00003

01 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

02 Good evening. I'd like to welcome you to our

03 meeting this evening. I'm Suzy McKinney with Zapata

04 Engineering. David Mullinax, our chair, is absent

05 this evening, so I will do my best to stand in for

06 him.

07 BY MR. THOMPSON:

08 He just drove up.

09 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

10 I thought he was ---

11 BY MR. THOMPSON:

12 Maybe it wasn't him.

13 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

14 Well, I'll go ahead and give him a break this

15 evening.

16 First of all, I'd like to introduce Karl

17 Blankinship who is with us. He's with the US Army

18 Engineering and Support Center out of Huntsville.

19 He's been involved with this project essentially since

20 it started many years ago, and we also have Alonzo

21 Andrews with us from Huntsville this evening and Jim

22 Truelove, our project manager, from Charleston.

23 Does everybody have an agenda? We have those

24 available up front.

25 Our first item on the agenda is the nomination

00004

01 and election of a new chair. Our chair serves one

02 year terms. Dave has served, actually, two years back

03 to back, so his term is up. He had an option to serve

04 a second year.

05 So this evening I would like to solicit

06 nominations for the chair for the upcoming year. Just

07 a reminder, the chair's responsibility is to keep our

08 meetings rolling and maintain order during our

09 meetings.

10 As far as preparation of correspondence and

11 logistics and any other support, that's what my role

12 is and Patti with Zapata Engineering.

13 So their role, essentially, is for the next four

14 meetings to be here and to keep us all in order. So I

15 would like to open it up to the Board for any

16 nominations for chair for the upcoming year.

17 Don't all speak at once.

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 I nominate Mr. Thompson.

20 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

21 Second.

22 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

23 Mr. Thompson, do you accept?

24 BY MR. THOMPSON:

25 Okay. Yeah, I'll do it.

00005

01 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

02 Yeah. Any other nominations?

03 (NO RESPONSE)

04 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

05 Do we want to have any discussion on Mr.

06 Thompson's nomination or shall we just vote? Any

07 discussion?

08 BY MR. THOMPSON:

09 Sounds like a railroad to me.

10 BY DR. POWELL:

11 Suzy, has he got to agree to that?

12 BY DR. LOWRY:

13 He just did.

14 BY DR. POWELL:

15 He did?

16 BY MR. THOMPSON:

17 He's twisting my legs down here.

18 BY DR. POWELL:

19 Oh, there he is. I didn't think you were here.

20 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

21 I'll make it easy for you.

22 BY MR. STEWART:

23 Who are the nominees? I don't know.

24 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

25 Mr. Jim Thompson. He's been on the Board ---

00006

01 BY DR. POWELL:

02 Green shirt.

03 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

04 --- the past two years.

05 BY MR. THOMPSON:

06 Yes, ma'am.

07 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

08 All in favor of Mr. Thompson being our new

09 chair?

10 (ALL IN FAVOR)

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 Welcome.

13 BY MR. THOMPSON:

14 Thank you.

15 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

16 Congratulations. Anybody opposed?

17 (NONE OPPOSED)

18 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

19 Looking at their faces, I don't think so.

20 Okay. You will begin to chair at the next

21 meeting and our next meeting will be in October.

22 BY MR. THOMPSON:

23 Thank you.

24 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

25 And I'll turn it over to you this quickly.

00007

01 All right. With that taken care of, I'd like to

02 now turn the meeting over to Jim, who will give us a

03 status report on the removal actions at OOU6, Dr.

04 Lowry's property and some of the final reports that

05 have been completed.

06 BY MR. TRUELOVE:

07 Just real quickly, we're somewhere between 75

08 and 80 percent complete with the removal actions out

09 on OOU6. We found approximately 9 -- 90 -- excuse me

10 -- 90 live items, and 250 inert items. That's about

11 all that I was planning to give, unless someone has

12 got some questions.

13 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

14 Give me the range and type of ordnance that were

15 live?

16 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

17 60s, 81s and 105s.

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 Some phosphorus?

20 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

21 Yes, sir, some quite phosphorus also. Either

22 two or three of those, and just a little -- a tidbit

23 to add to help understand what we've done, we've dug,

24 if I'm not mistaken, there were 80,000 holes that we

25 had to dig, so there are a lot of items that are the

00008

01 size and shape of ordnance but aren't live ordnance

02 but they are ordnance scrap.

03 BY MR. CRISSINGER:

04 What's the general condition of the ordnance, of

05 the live ordnance? Deteriorated? Slightly

06 deteriorated?

07 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

08 I really -- I couldn't say. It's -- it's of the

09 condition you would expect if it's been buried in the

10 ground 30 or 40 years. It's not of a condition that

11 would detonate by just moving it if you know what

12 you're doing, but -- but it has all been fired, and

13 it's all -- it's live, the live items are live. So if

14 they were mishandled, they could easily detonate.

15 BY DR. LOWRY:

16 May I interrupt? The two that I found myself

17 looked pretty good. In fact, some 30 caliber

18 ammunition, just the little bullets, some of them

19 still have a back on them. So this is phosphorus.

20 BY MR. HAYES:

21 What was probably the deepest that you found

22 them?

23 BY DR. POWELL:

24 That was my question.

25 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

00009

01 If I'm mistaken, around two feet is the normal

02 for the deepest. I think they found a couple of

03 things deeper than two feet, but most of it has been

04 frag.

05 A lot of times when one of those items will hit

06 the ground and detonate in the ground, it will blow

07 down, so there's substantial pieces of frag below two

08 feet. Most of the live items have been at around two

09 feet or above.

10 BY MR. HALL:

11 Was there a mix of 105 millimeter?

12 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

13 I'm sorry?

14 BY MR. HALL:

15 Was there a mix? Was it high explosive or did

16 you have any -- any other type?

17 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

18 Yes, sir. Most of what we found were base

19 ejection illumination rounds, smoke rounds or

20 illumination rounds. We found hundreds of those, but

21 -- but if you look at the item itself laying on the

22 ground or buried in the ground, you can't tell it from

23 a high explosive round. So a large part of the 250

24 that we found were the smoke rounds or the base

25 ejection illumination. Several of them have been high

00010

01 explosive 105 rounds.

02 BY MR. CRISSINGER:

03 Were these findings primarily concentrated in

04 one area or where they just sparsely located

05 throughout the area?

06 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

07 They -- if I can, let me get this -- this map,

08 and then I think that will help. Okay. (Retrieving

09 map).

10 Can most everyone see that at least a little

11 bit?

12 (NO RESPONSE)

13 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

14 The square here -- (indicating) -- inside here

15 is the grid 87 area, the primary area we're clearing.

16 Most of the 105s and the 80s and 61s -- or 81s and

17 60s, rather -- have been sort of concentrated in this

18 area right here, which is right up the top of the hill

19 and where we expected that the target was probably

20 located.

21 I will say, though, that we found the

22 illumination rounds up in here. We found things down

23 in this ravine. So, essentially, there's frag --

24 heavy fragment all over this area, the entire area,

25 but most of the full up rounds that we found have been

00011

01 concentrated right here around the top of the hill

02 where we expected the target was.

03 BY DR. POWELL:

04 Is there any best guess of how much you might

05 find beyond Dr. Lowry's property line?

06 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

07 No, sir. I don't have any idea. Within OOU6,

08 the only landowner, as far as I understand who gave us

09 permission to look, was Dr. Lowry.

10 We do -- and this is talking based on what I've

11 seen out there. I think the majority of what's in

12 OOU6 is right here on Grid 87 and specifically right

13 around the top of the hill.

14 We found -- I think you all -- you all know that

15 when we cleared the area for one of the -- one of the

16 other areas there, over to the west over in here, we

17 found some of the illumination rounds, but that's the

18 only place where we found any full up 105s or full --

19 full shells is back over in here.

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 You found one over there right at the pond site.

22 Parsons. Parsons found that.

23 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

24 That's right. They did find one HE over there.

25 BY DR. LOWRY:

00012

01 Which was right at that line.

02 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

03 Yes, sir.

04 BY MR. CRISSINGER:

05 And what do you base your supposition that

06 that's not clear and you didn't find anything?

07 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

08 We did the year before -- well, that's from last

09 year. We did what we call an Engineering Design. We

10 looked at all of the -- all of the property within

11 OOU6 that we could get right-of-entry to. We went

12 through there and laid out a systematic grid pattern

13 and actually did intrusive sampling across all of --

14 all of Dr. Lowry's property, and we were prepared to

15 do it on the other landowners but couldn't get a

16 right-of-entry. So in doing that, what we did is try

17 to isolate the area that we felt like was the target

18 and the most likely place to find ordnance.

19 BY MR. CRISSINGER:

20 This is -- do I understand you correctly in

21 saying that this is based on random sampling?

22 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

23 Yes, sir.

24 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

25 Mr. Blankinship, this would have been the

00013

01 primary target area for the training facility?

02 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

03 No, sir. This is for this specific range only.

04 This was a target for a specific range, and some of

05 the -- I don't see it. I don't think we have it up

06 right now, but if you look in the documentation for

07 the Camp Croft itself, all of this area in here was

08 impact area also, so most of the Camp Croft Park

09 itself.

10 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

11 Basically, south of Dairy Ridge Road?

12 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

13 Yes, sir.

14 BY DR. LOWRY:

15 This is the only place, though, that you found

16 105 HEs?

17 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

18 Yes, sir.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 And the only place you found phosphorus?

21 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

22 Yes, sir, as far as I know.

23 BY MR. HALL:

24 Were most of the illuminating rounds 105 or were

25 they 81 millimeter?

00014

01 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

02 They were all 105.

03 BY MR. HALL:

04 105?

05 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

06 Yes, sir.

07 BY MR. HALL:

08 And how are unstable are they?

09 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

10 Um, ---

11 BY MR. HALL:

12 Well, how did you -- how did you neutralize your

13 105 illuminating rounds?

14 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

15 The -- the canister itself that's in -- within

16 the 105, we didn't find any of them that still had the

17 cannister inside the hole, if you call it a hole.

18 All of the -- all of the cannisters were

19 partially spent. We found them separate from the

20 round itself, and they were handled as hazardous

21 waste.

22 They're -- they're not an explosive hazard. So

23 we packed them and shipped them to a hazardous waste

24 landfill.

25 BY DR. LOWRY:

00015

01 Anybody else have any other comment?

02 I'd like to say that I really appreciate all

03 that you all have done. It's been a long -- not only

04 did I say you could come on my land, I begged you to

05 come on my land, but I think you've done a great job.

06 I think it's been hard for both of you all for

07 doing what you've done. I've been through three

08 project managers in Charleston and two in Huntsville.

09 I -- I'm very pleased with what's done, and I thank

10 you all very much for your help.

11 Take all the time in the world to finish, but

12 I'm glad you're that close to being finished.

13 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

14 You're very welcome. You know -- you know how I

15 am. I push them hard to get done. I don't like to

16 stay in one place too long, so ---

17 BY DR. LOWRY:

18 But I'm pleased that nobody has been hurt.

19 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

20 Yes, sir, I agree.

21 BY MR. TRUELOVE:

22 Okay.

23 If there are not any more questions on that

24 subject, ---

25 BY MR. DUBEAU:

00016

01 Yes, sir, I've got one.

02 BY MR. TRUELOVE:

03 All right.

04 BY MR. DUBEAU:

05 I want to know if he only found one shell.

06 BY MR. TRUELOVE:

07 If you only found one shell?

08 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

09 No, sir. We found 300. In round numbers, 300.

10 BY MR. DUBEAU:

11 That's right. Now, tell them where it is.

12 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

13 I'm sorry, sir. I don't understand your

14 question.

15 BY MR. DUBEAU:

16 Well, I was at Camp Croft.

17 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

18 Yes, sir.

19 BY MR. DUBEAU:

20 As an instructor, and I want some answers.

21 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

22 All right.

23 BY MR. DUBEAU:

24 Okay.

25 BY MR. BLANKINSHIP:

00017

01 I'll be glad to answer your questions, sir.

02 BY MR. DUBEAU:

03 Well, I just asked you one. I want to know

04 where they're at and where you're finding them.

05 Nobody seems to think there's anything out there, you

06 know.

07 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

08 Mr. DuBeau, when did you leave Camp Croft?

09 BY MR. DUBEAU:

10 The first time was in early '43.

11 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

12 Then you came back?

13 BY MR. DUBEAU:

14 Yes, sir.

15 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

16 And when?

17 BY MR. DUBEAU:

18 '40 -- early '46.

19 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

20 And the camp was in the process of being -- were

21 you still in the military in '46?

22 BY MR. DUBEAU:

23 Well, they were getting ready to tear it up.

24 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

25 Were you still in the military?

00018

01 BY MR. DUBEAU:

02 Yes, sir.

03 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

04 Were you stationed at Camp Croft in '46?

05 BY MR. DUBEAU:

06 Temporarily for about 80 days.

07 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

08 So, really, from '43 to '46 you don't know what

09 happened out at Camp Croft?

10 BY MR. DUBEAU:

11 No, but I know what happened while I was there.

12 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

13 Yes, sir.

14 BY MR. DUBEAU:

15 I was an instructor. Okay?

16 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

17 I'm not questioning that.

18 BY MR. DUBEAU:

19 No, you question it any way you want to ask it,

20 but I'm going to tell you something, the stuff that's

21 up there that's been there, it was powerful and

22 somebody -- I'm not asking anybody to hide anything,

23 but there was stuff that was rough, real rough.

24 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

25 I don't think anyone here is trying to hide

00019

01 anything or cover it up. It's very obvious that ---

02 BY MR. DUBEAU:

03 Well, there seems to be a one way street.

04 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

05 In what way, Mr. DuBeau?

06 BY MR. DUBEAU:

07 Well, I think this -- and, seriously, and I

08 appreciate what the doctor has to say, and, I mean,

09 I'm not arguing with that. I'm just -- I want them to

10 find some stuff that they say never happened here in

11 the training period. Okay?

12 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

13 I'm confused. What -- what do you -- what are

14 you saying that happened here that they haven't found?

15 BY MR. DUBEAU:

16 Well, they had anti-tank training out here.

17 BY MR. RUSSELL SMITH:

18 They didn't have any anti-tank explosives.

19 Sanford Smith looked that up in the Aberdeen Proving

20 Ground. They fired no 57 anti-tank explosive shells

21 at Camp Croft.

22 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

23 Excuse me, sir. I'll have to disagree with you

24 on that. I've lived out here all my life, and I've

25 found hundreds of those things.

00020

01 BY MR. RUSSELL SMITH:

02 Explosives?

03 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

04 You better believe it.

05 BY WOMAN IN AUDIENCE:

06 All right.

07 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

08 Detonated myself out here a cherry bomb.

09 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

10 Well, that means ---

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 Excuse me. Excuse me.

13 BY MR. ZIMMERMAN:

14 And I proved it.

15 BY MR. RUSSELL SMITH:

16 I've got ---

17 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

18 Excuse me. Order. Sir. And one at a time so

19 we can have all of this recorded. Thank you.

20 BY DR. LOWRY:

21 Yeah, I'd like to comment about my land, if I

22 could. Now, there's a stack of 105s out there that

23 are inactive that are illumination rounds that are as

24 high as this table that go from here to Suzy. I don't

25 think they found but seven live 105s, and they did on

00021

01 one of the EE/CAs find one illumination rounds that

02 still haven't charged.

03 I don't know how many 81s they found, but the

04 ones that I was afraid of most were the phosphorus

05 rounds and they found those, and I'm very pleased with

06 the results and not near as afraid to get on my

07 tractor as I used to be. And I believe before it's

08 all done that at least my area will be cleaned up, and

09 which they tried to do for people surrounding me

10 without permission.

11 So you're welcome to come see what's on my

12 property. I'll be glad to take you there. I don't

13 believe there's anything there that they have --

14 that's live and has not been blown up in the areas

15 that they have searched.

16 But, as you know, if you all are half familiar

17 with the 105, you can be a considerable distance and

18 you'll miss that one. So there might be some stray

19 rounds anywhere.

20 Like I say, we found them all the way from

21 almost the highway on 176 to mostly what used to be on

22 this Lake Road, but I believe they've been -- I

23 believe all of those have been found, but you're

24 welcome to come with me anytime you wish. I can ---

25 BY MR. DUBEAU:

00022

01 No. No. No, what I was saying, Doctor,

02 seriously, I'm not contradicting this man.

03 BY DR. LOWRY:

04 Yes, sir.

05 BY MR. DUBEAU:

06 And I'm not contradicting you. I'm just saying

07 that a lot of different arms were trusted, were used

08 out there to teach people what they were going to run

09 into, and I've heard comments where they say, you

10 know, "Nothing like this was fired." Now, that --

11 that's -- that's all my question is.

12 BY DR. LOWRY:

13 Well, I don't think there were any records of

14 105s being fired in Camp Croft.

15 BY MR. DUBEAU:

16 Well, you know, there was two tanks out there

17 firing and nobody knows where the tanks are.

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 I hope, you know, you all would have found them.

20 I'm not sure.

21 BY MR. DUBEAU:

22 I guarantee they knew they where they were being

23 fired.

24 BY MR. HALL:

25 Were they firing solid shot or were they firing

00023

01 HE or 76 millimeter, 9 millimeter?

02 BY MR. DUBEAU:

03 Well, a little bit of everything. They fired a

04 round to let you know what it -- what it was going to

05 look like, and then they fire a round to hit something

06 and let you know what it was going to do.

07 BY MR. HALL:

08 They had tank gunnery here?