00001

01 CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

01 *******************************************************

02 PLACE: SC School for the Deaf and the Blind

03 Swearingen Conference Center

04 DATE: Tuesday, September 9, 1997

05 TIME: 7:05 p.m. to 8:40 p.m.

06 PRESENTATION

06 GIVEN BY: Wayne Bogan

07 Project Manager

07 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

08 Charleston District

09 Ola A. Awosika

09 PARSONS ENGINEERING SCIENCE, INC.

10 BOARD MEMBERS

11 PRESENT: David Mullinax, Chair

11 Norma Borkowski

12 Kathy Burrell

12 Fritz Hamer

13 Gary Hayes

13 John E. Keith

14 William Littlejohn, Jr.

14 W. Brownlee Lowry

15 George Mullinax

15 Harold D. Osborne

16 Robert W. Powell, Jr.

16 Clary H. Smith

17 Sanford N. Smith

17 James B. Thompson

18 Sherry Wheeler

18 Darwin J. Wilson

19 BOARD MEMBERS

20 NOT PRESENT: Gerard Perry

20 Dot Sloan

21 Gerald T. Thurmond

22 ALSO PRESENT: Suzy McKinney

22 Zapata Engineering, P.A.

23 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104

23 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204

24 REPORTED BY: Sandy Satterwhite Reporting

25 (864)574-1455

00002

01 INDEX

02 Welcome by Mr. David Mullinax. . . . . . . . . . . 3

03 Status of Removal Activities by Mr. Bogan. . . . . 3

04 EE/CA Engineering Design Report by Mr. Awosika . . 59

05 1998 Restoration Advisory Board by Ms. McKinney. . 75

06 New Business . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 80

07 Certificate of Reporter . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103

00003

01 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

02 I'd like to welcome everybody to our September

03 meeting of the Camp Croft Restoration Advisory Board.

04 Just to remind you of a few things that

05 everybody has a copy of the agenda. We will follow

06 the agenda. If anybody has any remarks, please keep

07 those remarks pertinent to the subject at hand.

08 Whatever the speaking is talking about, address the

09 questions towards his subject or her subject.

10 If you're new to the meeting, please state your

11 name, so that it can be entered in the record.

12 At this time, I'll turn it over to Mr. Wayne

13 Bogan.

14 BY MR. BOGAN:

15 Good evening, and welcome back to everyone. I

16 wish I had a job like this where I stood up and talked

17 for two minutes instead of standing up here and

18 talking quite a bit longer.

19 BY MR. DAVID MULLINAX:

20 That's why you make the big bucks.

21 BY MR. BOGAN:

22 Yeah, that's why you're paid the big bucks,

23 right? That's what my National Guard guys tell me,

24 too.

25 Okay. What I want to do briefly is start over

00004

01 the status of removal activities, what we've got

02 ongoing and what we're finishing up.

03 The primary focus is going to be on the

04 engineering design that we've just completed for Area

05 OOU6. But, just briefly, the final report from Human

06 Factors Application, HFA, for the work that they did

07 primarily within the State Park in the Wedgewood

08 neighborhood, we got that final report in.

09 This is where they're finishing up the clearance

10 letters to give to the State Park a letter saying that

11 your property was cleared to specific depths.

12 In addition to that removal reports, we've got

13 the sampling report. Remember, I think it was in

14 March when I mentioned that we had some additional

15 sites. We haven't been given too many, but we're

16 going to try and look at those.

17 We looked at those. We got the report in. I

18 just got it in this week, and I haven't had a chance

19 to send out copies, yet.

20 It essentially said that they found nothing in

21 all these different sites that we've looked at. If

22 any additional areas do come up, then we'll try and

23 address those again on an as needed basis.

24 I know I have one gentleman who has told me that

25 he has some additional sites he wants to give me, and

00005

01 so we'll try and address those when we actually do the

02 removal action for the -- as a result of the next

03 EE/CA report.

04 I also have a copy of the draft EE/CA report

05 that was -- as we had it in the June meeting where

06 we've made some revisions to it and asked the

07 contractor to do some additional work. So they're

08 finishing that up.

09 We expect that they will have a public meeting,

10 as a result of their reports presented in its draft

11 form, on October the 22nd.

12 To try and keep from having too many things at

13 one time, I didn't want to present the design for Area

14 6 and the full EE/CA at the same point and start

15 getting two different work efforts combined. Plus,

16 the other contractor wasn't quite ready to make the

17 presentation, but they will do that on October the

18 22nd.

19 That then leads me into the primary focus that I

20 have tonight, which is on Area 6. All the RAB members

21 were sent a copy of the draft, Engineering Design.

22 Okay. You've got Volume I and Volume II.

23 I'm going to ask tonight that you give back

24 Volume II temporarily. The reason being that they

25 should not have gone out to you, because that's the

00006

01 basis of our government estimate from when we actually

02 award the contract for the removal. Okay. So it's --

03 we prefer to keep that close hold.

04 I mean, you've seen it. It's not a problem, but

05 I don't want to happen is some -- somebody has a

06 contractor come in and approach one of you and you

07 have the estimate, then kind of, "Well, I mean, how

08 much do you think we should spend on that," and you

09 all are in a position where you say, "Well, let me

10 just look at the report. You ought to spend this

11 amount of money on this work." Then they've got a

12 head start on the rest of the competition for this

13 work. Okay.

14 Once we award the contract, then I'll give you

15 the copies right back.

16 If anybody has any questions about that and

17 about the way the process works, just please let me

18 know.

19 I'm going to hit a couple of the primary points

20 as a result of the report. Hopefully, all of you have

21 had a chance to look at it. I'll point out a couple

22 of pages that I want to reference to briefly.

23 The first one is going to be in the Executive

24 Summary, page ES-5. That's just a quick report, a

25 quick chart that shows each of the different sectors

00007

01 that we've looked at, what we plan on doing in each of

02 those. That's essentially the final word what we're

03 looking at doing.

04 For those in the audience I apologize for not

05 having copies to hand out. I'll try to have copies

06 next time when I come to the Board to give another

07 presentation.

08 Following the basic process for going through an

09 engineering design -- can everybody see this all

10 right? I'll try to turn it so that everybody can see.

11 What we've tried to do is come in and gather all

12 the site data and historical data and the field data,

13 as we have in the others, and we've been putting in

14 that what we call a geographical information system.

15 And you'll see it on one of the charts that I pull up

16 in a minute, which is a map of all kinds of colors and

17 everything else.

18 That's essentially a computer program that let's

19 us take all the information and display it on the map

20 in various colors and help us to organize the

21 information.

22 From that we've done a statistical analysis.

23 Look at Sector I and look at Sector II, what is the

24 risk, and what's the chances of somebody getting hurt,

25 and that gives us our risk analysis, and then we look

00008

01 at the different areas on the ground to give us the

02 final report.

03 For those of you with the reports, this is just

04 right outside of your reports. That way you know

05 which chart this is.

06 BY MR. AWOSIKA:

07 I think it's Figure 1-8.

08 BY MR. BOGAN:

09 So you can look in there, and for everybody else

10 I'll have this so you have a full blown view so you

11 can see it.

12 The property was divided up into several

13 different areas. You'll notice the yellow areas, and

14 these are properties where we did not get a right of

15 entry to do any work on the property.

16 All right. Number one from the landowner not

17 wanting us to come on the property; and two from other

18 pieces of property where we could not get a hold of

19 the landowner. So everything has been focused,

20 excluding these two yellow areas.

21 All right. We come in the big red area is Grid

22 87. This is an area we have already designated that

23 we need to do future work on that. I have the draft

24 work plan for Grid 87 in my hand. That's going

25 forward for safety approval and for a request to get

00009

01 all the approvals we need to start the work.

02 Okay. Engineering Design will highlight all of

03 the other areas. Okay. So we're excluding the yellow

04 and primarily excluding the red one for the moment.

05 We addressed all the future and current work as

06 best we could. We're primarily focusing on the

07 current work on the property. Again, it's primarily

08 Dr. Lowry's property. Some down the side run into

09 others, and some of your maps identify those. All

10 right.

11 As a result of looking at the different areas,

12 we found 15 ordnance items in the area, one of which

13 was a live 105 millimeter artillary shell.

14 Okay. The map -- and you'll be able to come up

15 and look at it later -- a little bit later on --

16 identifies where these were located. All right.

17 You'll see a red square that's not filled in,

18 and these are the areas where they have found the 105

19 rounds or projectiles. Excuse me. And you've also

20 got the one red square that's filled in. That was

21 where we found the one alive around -- right next to

22 the pond area where Dr. Lowry is building that.

23 The recommendations that have come back from our

24 contractor, Parsons Engineering, essentially

25 recommends that there's several areas that we want to

00010

01 come in and do a clearance on, ranging from a surface

02 clearance to a clearance down to four feet.

03 The primary areas that we're going to look at --

04 again, we already have Grid 87 here identified to do a

05 clearance down to around four foot. And I say around

06 four foot, because the deepest that we found anything

07 here was 24 inches. And we're setting that up to go

08 down to four foot for the clearance.

09 We also have a Landfill 1 part of that area and

10 Compost A, and we have Compost B right adjacent to

11 Landfill No. 2; and then we have the pond area that we

12 recommend coming in and doing cleanup on that.

13 The alternatives for the pond area, we recommend

14 that it comes in and we do a clearance down to one

15 foot. Well, actually, a majority of the pond area

16 we've already done clearance on. That's where at the

17 March meeting where we were trying to go forward after

18 we found a live 105 in the immediate area of

19 construction. We've already had HFA to come in and to

20 clean the pond area, so that during the construction

21 activities, they wouldn't run into a problem.

22 That's not -- the entire area was not covered

23 during that clearance, so there would be portions of

24 this that would still require additional work.

25 We've got Landfill 1 and Compost Area A, we

00011

01 recommended surface clearance and then a sub-surface

02 clearance down to four feet.

03 All right. You've got a Compost -- let me make

04 sure this is right.

05 Compost B area next to Landfill 2 has a

06 recommendation to go down to -- excuse me. Just to do

07 a surface clearance, because there's not going to be

08 any intrusive work. In the Compost area, if you're

09 going to use the top of the surface, the

10 recommendation was just to surface clearance only.

11 If you have any questions about the definition

12 we use for surface clearance before, I can bring that

13 up if you need it.

14 All right. Then we have the pine farm area,

15 which was primarily this pink area. The only area

16 that we're looking at here is where we have the

17 magazine storage now where there's going to be a

18 construction area for a barn in that area, and that's

19 going to be clearance down to one foot for that for

20 the future excavation.

21 That, essentially, is a quick summary of what is

22 a result of finding these 15 items we're recommending

23 that we do in the next removal action for this

24 particular piece of property.

25 Does anybody have a particular question about

00012

01 this?

02 BY DR. KEITH:

03 How many acres in this -- this area we're

04 talking about doing? What's the total acreage there?

05 BY MR. BOGAN:

06 Actually, if you'll look in your -- page 3-5,

07 there's a chart that gives a total acreage of

08 different areas.

09 BY DR. KEITH:

10 In the very first of it?

11 BY MR. BOGAN:

12 It's Table 3- -- excuse me. Table 3.1.

13 BY DR. KEITH:

14 Could you just read it to me or ---

15 BY MR. BOGAN:

16 Sure.

17 BY DR. KEITH:

18 I don't know if I can find it here.

19 BY MR. BOGAN:

20 Landfill in the compost areas is 21 acres. That

21 would be Landfill 1 and Compost Area A. I'll

22 point this out to you. This is going to be your 21

23 acres here. Okay.

24 Then you've got the pond area, which is 25

25 acres. Of those 25, we've already done approximately

00013

01 10.

02 BY MR. THOMPSON:

03 How far down did you go on those?

04 BY MR. BOGAN:

05 Four foot. Then Compost A -- excuse me.

06 Compost B.

07 BY MR. AWOSIKA:

08 Compost B is approximately five acres.

09 BY MR. BOGAN:

10 Five acres. Okay. It's not listed. It's

11 included with all the rest of it. That's why it

12 wasn't bringing it up. Okay.

13 So we're looking at 21 acres around Landfill 1,

14 five acres here, an additional, say, 15 acres there.

15 All right. So around 40 acres. And then Grid 87,

16 I'll have to look in the report to see how many acres

17 that was.

18 BY MS. BORKOWSKI:

19 That's 30.

20 BY DR. KEITH:

21 On Grid 87, how deep are you going to take 87,

22 did you say?

23 BY MR. BOGAN:

24 Four foot.

25 BY DR. KEITH:

00014

01 Four feet?

02 BY MR. BOGAN:

03 Yes, sir.

04 BY MR. CLARY SMITH:

05 Why are you going four feet on some and surface

06 on the others?

07 BY MR. BOGAN:

08 Based on what was found in the area and the

09 recommended future use of the property. For example,

10 the Compost B here, the only future use listed or

11 recommended was a compost area, which doesn't require

12 any intrusive work or very little intrusive work, so

13 that's what they recommend.

14 BY MR. HAMER:

15 Well, what I need to know what they mean by

16 compost. Are we talking about throwing vegetation,

17 leaves and stuff?

18 BY MR. BOGAN:

19 Leaves. Like if I'm -- that's correct. Dr.

20 Lowry was taking the leaves from ---

21 BY DR. LOWRY:

22 Can I -- can I have just a minute here? May I,

23 please?

24 I have an agreement with the City of

25 Spartanburg, because I have so much poor land, to

00015

01 accept all of the leaves that are non bagged with no

02 trash in them free of charge, and those essentially

03 are piled up, rot and used to plant.

04 BY MR. STONEWALL STEWART:

05 We can't hear you all the way in the back.

06 BY DR. LOWRY:

07 Composting. These are leaves that I accept for

08 Spartanburg City at no charge, and we pile them up and

09 let them rot and pile it into the areas that we want

10 to plant.

11 There's so much red clay, that we needed the

12 hummus in the soil, and this is probably the easiest

13 way to do it. We receive approximately 500 tons a

14 year of leaves at ---

15 BY MR. HAMER:

16 Where are you going to plow this up? Right in

17 the same area, eventually?

18 BY DR. LOWRY:

19 Not always. No, sometimes we haul it to another

20 area.

21 BY MR. HAMER:

22 But if you're going to be plowing eventually

23 somewhere in there, isn't that ---

24 BY DR. LOWRY:

25 But this is -- this is what I want to speak to.

00016

01 I think that the future use of this property, Wayne,

02 is -- is definitely development or agriculture. And

03 as you all have heard me say many, many times in here,

04 the Department of Defense recommends four feet for

05 agricultural use. It recommends four feet for

06 recreational use. It recommends ten feet for

07 construction. Now this is your own Department of

08 Defense Safety Explosive Board, and I have all of this

09 stuff in writing.

10 And there are a lot of areas on this property

11 right now that we're using for extensive deer hunting.

12 What else -- what else can you do with it? I mean,

13 who wants to go in there and get blown up in plowing.

14 I'm not going to. I certainly don't want my children

15 to do so.

16 I don't know whether you can see my map or

17 whether it is accurate compared to this map, but

18 there's a lot of stuff in here that's -- excuse me.

19 Although it's not exactly accurate with my plans, and

20 I'm sorry if I misled you.

21 Wayne, can you hold this on that side, please.

22 BY MR. BOGAN:

23 Sure.

24 BY DR. LOWRY:

25 This is Highway 176. This is the Pine Street

00017

01 extension. You all can see that. Can you all see

02 that? This is the Pine Street extension here.

03 Three and a half years ago I had a pond surveyed

04 right here by the US Agricultural Department, and

05 there are two entrances here -- one of them being

06 right here and one of them being down here -- that I

07 was going to use to enter this property to build my

08 home on, which is the reason I bought this land was to

09 build a future home.

10 All right. When they cleared this, the area

11 that I have here in yellow is the poppy field. It's

12 where they had a section of road 400 feet long, 40

13 feet wide in which they found 3,000 flags?

14 BY MR. BOGAN:

15 I'd have to go back and look at the report.

16 BY DR. LOWRY:

17 It's approximately -- between 2,500 and 3,000

18 flags were put down in a strip of land from here to

19 the end of the parking lot.

20 They cleared this piece of property up here for

21 40 feet, and they cleared this road coming down here,

22 made a circle and cleared approximately four acres in

23 here and found 15,000 pounds of shrapnel.

24 They wouldn't tell me exactly how many 105s they

25 found, except that they did find a live 105 right

00018

01 here.

02 Will you turn it around where they can see it,

03 please?

04 Now, we found the live 105 here, the live 105

05 here, two live 60s here, two live 60 millimeter

06 mortars here, and across these strips that they ran

07 anywhere from 13 to 11, and I can't -- each report I

08 read is different, but there were seven 81s and six

09 60s in one of the reports of the EE/CA that was done

10 across the top of this hill, which is Grid 87.

11 So we found live artillary all the way from

12 right here to right here to right here, which is about

13 600 feet from the road, and I think it rather -- I

14 don't think it's very thorough to clean up a piece of

15 land in part and have to come back later to do it.

16 If my plans change and I want to develop this

17 piece of property and sell it to people to build homes

18 on to work down at the new Disney plant, I ought to be

19 able to do so. Anything less than four feet is

20 inadequate. If I want to plow this land and plant it,

21 anything less than four feet is inadequate. If I want

22 to burn this property and plant pine trees, anything

23 less than four feet is inadequate for the entire area

24 that I have circled.

25 Now I'm no ordnance expert, but I know a live

00019

01 105 when I see it, and I know a dead one when I see

02 it, but when you're plowing on a tractor and one comes

03 up, I can't explain the feeling to you.

04 I think that the entire place should be cleaned.

05 I think it should be cleaned to four feet, and that's

06 just my opinion, and I would like some feedback from

07 this Board on that.

08 I don't want to be plowing out there. I don't

09 want my children doing it, and I certainly don't want

10 my grandchildren to go out and start digging in the

11 woods someplace and get blown to smithereens, and I

12 think it -- I think this is inadequate, and I don't

13 think any of you all would want to buy this property

14 knowing that because it was planted in pine forest

15 they didn't want to search it. Because if you ever

16 cut the trees down and want to dig a foundation, what

17 are you going to do? We're going -- I'm in four years

18 of this now. We're going to wait four years to build

19 a house?

20 BY MR. HAMER:

21 So, Dr. Lowry, you purchased this land four

22 years ago?

23 BY DR. LOWRY:

24 I can't tell you the exact date, but it's at

25 least -- yes, and I let the Corps of Engineers know

00020

01 that there was stuff here. When was the Time Critical

02 done, Wayne?

03 BY MR. BOGAN:

04 It was done from August through December of '94.

05 BY DR. LOWRY:

06 And so Wayne was riding around with me on this

07 property in a different position, but you were with

08 the Corps then, and visited this property and saw this

09 munitions that were on this property at that time, and

10 I've been trying to get it cleaned up ever since, and

11 all I can get is piecemeal.

12 I'd like it to be cleaned up once and for all,

13 and I'd like a certificate saying that it went to four

14 feet.

15 BY MR. THOMPSON:

16 Wayne, what percentage of that -- all the acres

17 is four feet now, do you know?

18 BY MR. BOGAN:

19 I'd have to look. You're looking at -- now the

20 areas we're talking about working on is not the entire

21 area that Dr. Lowry has outlined. That one -- the

22 tree forest and all these others where we didn't find

23 anything during this sampling effort, all that effort

24 is excluded.

25 BY DR. LOWRY:

00021

01 But, Wayne, I have found stuff down there.

02 BY MR. BOGAN:

03 I understand, and I've talked with Parsons and

04 what I've recommended is that we're not only going to

05 have a chart that shows what was found during this

06 sampling activity, but they also took into account, by

07 going through the previous TCRAR, Time Critical

08 Removal Action Reports, and from previous EE/CA

09 reports, all the other items that were listed, and

10 those were placed in as far as calculating the risk

11 factors of the different areas and their analysis in

12 looking at that.

13 But I've asked them to put in a table to list

14 every item that has been found in three reports that

15 we've worked on for this area, plus have a column in

16 there for everything that Dr. Lowry has found when he

17 hired someone to do the clearance on his property at

18 his own cost.

19 BY DR. LOWRY:

20 Wayne, may I ask and add one more thing?

21 BY MR. BOGAN:

22 Yes.

23 BY DR. LOWRY:

24 Only five percent of this property has been

25 sampled; is that correct? 5.5 percent? 5.5623

00022

01 percent?

02 BY MR. AWOSIKA:

03 Yes, in that range.

04 BY DR. LOWRY:

05 So we don't know if 50 feet, from me to Mr.

06 Thompson here, that there's not a live 105 sitting

07 there waiting on it? Five percent of this property

08 has been sampled.