00001

01 CAMP CROFT RESTORATION ADVISORY BOARD MEETING

01 ******************************************************

02

02 PLACE: SC School for the Deaf and the Blind

03 Civitan Center

03

04 DATE: Tuesday, February 13, 1996

04

05 TIME: 7:10 p.m. to 9:35 p.m.

05

06 PRESENTATIONS

06 GIVEN BY: Suzy McKinney

07 Zapata Engineering, P.A.

07 1100 Kenilworth Avenue, Suite 104

08 Charlotte, North Carolina 28204

08

09 Wayne Bogan

09 Project Manager

10 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

10 Charleston District

11

11 BOARD MEMBERS

12 PRESENT: Robert W. Powell, Jr.

12 George Mullinax

13 Kathy Burrell

13 Gary Hayes

14 Gerald T. Thurmond

14 Sherry Wheeler

15 Clary H. Smith

15 William Littlejohn, Jr.

16 David Mullinax

16 Sanford N. Smith

17 Fritz Hamer

17 Gerard Perry

18 Dot Sloan

18 Harold D. Osborne

19 James B. Thompson

19 Norma Borkowski

20 Darwin J. Wilson

20 W. Brownlee Lowry

21 John E. Keith

21

22 ALSO PRESENT: Lieutenant Colonel Tom Julich

22 USACF

23 Charleston District Commander

23

24 REPORTED BY: Sandy Satterwhite Reporting

24 (864)574-1455

00002

01 INDEX

02 Welcome by Ms. McKinney . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

03 Welcome by Lieutenant Colonel Julich. . . . . . . . 3

04 Review of By-Laws by Mr. McKinney . . . . . . . . . 4

05 Review of Findings by Mr. Bogan . . . . . . . . . . 12

06 Presentation by Mr. Blake . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

07 Questions and Answers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14

08 Presentation by Mr. Bayuga. . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

09 Questions and Answers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

10 Statement made by Mr. Osborne . . . . . . . . . . . 19

11 Questions and Answers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21

12 Presentation by Mr. Bogan . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23

13 Certificate of Reporter . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125

00003

01 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

02 Good evening. Good evening, everybody. I'd

03 like to welcome you to the Second Restoration Advisory

04 Board Meeting. My name is Suzy McKinney. I'm with

05 Zapata Engineering from Charlotte, North Carolina.

06 Before we begin this evening's meeting, I would

07 like to introduce two members who were not present at

08 our last meeting. Dr. Gerald Thurmond and Mr. Fritz

09 Hamer, we welcome you this evening.

10 And I would also like to welcome the Charleston

11 District Engineer, Lieutenant Colonel Julich, who is

12 also here this evening. Would you like to ---

13 BY LIEUTENANT COLONEL JULICH:

14 Just a couple of quick comments, and then we'll

15 -- we'll let the Board get started here.

16 I wanted to come to one of the meetings here to

17 let you know I am very interested in what's going on

18 here and all the planning that we're doing for Camp

19 Croft, and hopefully we're going to be getting to some

20 execution here pretty soon.

21 I wanted to assure you that we're pushing the

22 system here to make sure that things can start

23 happening in a time frame that -- that we want them to

24 happen.

25 Wayne keeps me well informed. Wayne Bogan up

00004

01 here, who is my key person on Camp Croft, keeps me

02 well informed of what's going on. I see Minutes from

03 these meetings and things like that, so I am not out

04 of touch.

05 I will not be attending each of these RAB

06 Meetings, but I will stand for them through Wayne and

07 periodically will come in to make sure things are

08 progressing the way I think they need to be

09 progressing.

10 So, welcome. I'll sit down and now let the

11 meeting proceed.

12 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

13 Earlier this week, all of the Board members

14 received packages that included the revised By-Laws

15 and support documentation describing the ordnance and

16 explosives removal process.

17 We've left on the tables today some maps that

18 will help you go through the presentations later this

19 evening, the summary from the last meeting. We do

20 also have the transcripts here this evening if you

21 would like to look at those. Those transcripts are

22 also in the library.

23 And as far as forwarding the copies of

24 information to the library, what has been sent were

25 Meeting transcripts, the Engineering Evaluation and

00005

01 Cost Analysis. There are two copies of those

02 documents that are available for each of you to check

03 out for a period of up to two days. A third copy will

04 remain in the library to the public.

05 The Time Critical Removal Action Reports, two

06 copies, again, are available for each of you to check

07 out for a period of two days. One copy is to remain

08 in the library.

09 Several guidance documents, and I have some

10 examples of those up here this evening if you would

11 like to take a look at those, and a Proposed Military

12 Ammunitions Rule, a copy of that is also in the

13 library.

14 As we all agreed last month, I worked with each

15 of you individually to revise and add to the By-Laws,

16 and what I would like to do real briefly is run

17 through those revisions, they're all in italic, and

18 make sure that I've included all of your comments and

19 that you're in agreement with those. These were sent

20 to you the other day.

21 And I -- again, I'm just going to go through

22 briefly what was added and those things that are in

23 italic.

24 On the first page under the Mission Statement

25 several of you had concerns as to liability of serving

00006

01 on the RAB, and we've added language that reads, "All

02 decisions regarding OE removal activities are solely

03 the authority of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

04 Membership on the RAB does not imply or infer any

05 liability for incidents related to removal

06 activities."

07 On the second page, the comment that several of

08 you had under community members being represented on

09 the Board, we have added landowners to that list.

10 Beginning with the third page, as Wayne

11 described at the last meeting, we will not have an

12 Army co-chair and a community co-chair. We will have

13 a chair of the Board, and Wayne will serve as the Army

14 facilitator, so all reference to the co-chairs have

15 been replaced with community chair and with the Army

16 facilitator.

17 Under Item D, we reserve time at the end of

18 these meetings for public comments. These are public

19 meetings. We will work to address all of the Board's

20 issues and the agenda items early in the meeting and

21 then have an opportunity for public comment and

22 questions at a designated time towards the end of

23 those meetings.

24 Page four, we have added two items at the

25 beginning, F and G, which allows for special

00007

01 committees to be formed and which allows for special

02 meetings to be called by the Chair.

03 Under I, the last sentence, Replacement members

04 for any RAB member that is unable to fulfill his or

05 her obligations will be elected by a majority vote.

06 We've added Item J, that a member may be removed

07 by a majority vote if it is determined that a member's

08 actions are not serving the best interest of the

09 Board.

10 We've clarified V, that a Chair will be elected

11 annually. The initial election, we will provide names

12 of folks that have expressed interest in serving as

13 the Chair on the ballot for a majority vote. For

14 subsequent elections, we will have a nominating

15 committee.

16 Page number five, a Chair pro tem may be

17 appointed by the Chair if the Chair is going to be

18 unable to attend a meeting. That appointment is valid

19 only for the duration of that meeting.

20 Six, Item B, the meeting agendas will be

21 established by the Chair in coordination with the Army

22 Corps of Engineers.

23 First bullet under C, members are to attend the

24 meetings on time and to remain at the meetings for

25 their entire duration.

00008

01 And number seven, page seven, Item VII, that we

02 will have a procedures committee which will consist of

03 the Chair and one member of the Board to be appointed

04 and approved by a majority of the vote of the Board to

05 set forth any amendments to these By-Laws.

06 Are there any questions on these revisions? I

07 feel like we've included everyone's comments fully.

08 (NO QUESTIONS)

09 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

10 Would anyone like to set forth the Motion to

11 approve the By-Laws?

12 BY MR. SMITH:

13 Make the Motion.

14 BY MR. BOGAN:

15 Second.

16 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

17 Second.

18 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

19 Open for discussion.

20 BY MR. BOGAN:

21 We have a Motion that the By-Laws be accepted as

22 presented before you. Is there any discussion about

23 the By-Laws themselves?

24 (NO DISCUSSION)

25 BY MR. BOGAN:

00009

01 Seeing no discussion, we need to put this to a

02 vote. The Motion where the By-Laws be accepted as

03 they are, all those in favor say I.

04 (SEVERAL RESPOND)

05 BY MR. BOGAN:

06 Opposed say Nay.

07 (NO RESPONSE)

08 BY MR. BOGAN:

09 By-Laws accepted as presented to you.

10 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

11 As far as moving forward with the Chair for the

12 Board, based on conversations with each of you, you've

13 had several different comments and input. I've had

14 three individuals indicate an interest in serving as

15 the Chair, and I have had several individuals indicate

16 that they would like to have the facilitator run this

17 meeting and possibly the next meeting, and then vote

18 on a Chair after you all have an opportunity to get to

19 know each other a little better.

20 We're prepared to go either way this evening.

21 If someone would like to set forward a Motion on which

22 the Board would choose?

23 BY MR. CLARY SMITH:

24 Do you want a Motion?

25 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

00010

01 We do, yes.

02 BY MR. CLARY SMITH:

03 I move that we have a facilitator for the next

04 two meetings until we get to know each other better.

05 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

06 Second.

07 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

08 Okay. We have a Motion to have the facilitator

09 for the next two meetings. Any discussion?

10 (NO DISCUSSION)

11 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

12 All in favor?

13 (SEVERAL RESPOND)

14 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

15 Opposed?

16 (NO RESPONSE)

17 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

18 Wayne and I will facilitate this meeting and the

19 March meeting, and we'll plan on April on voting on

20 the Chair.

21 Okay. The last item, real briefly, several of

22 you have also expressed an interest on having a tour

23 of the Park to go through and see the operable units

24 and to get a better gauge on where they are in the

25 proximity to the hiking areas and the campgrounds.

00011

01 We've got two dates in mind that I would like to

02 bring forth and see if any of those dates are better

03 than another. We have Saturday, February 24th as one

04 option and March -- or March 2nd. We anticipate just

05 three or four hours in the morning, Wayne, to go do

06 that?

07 BY MR. BOGAN:

08 The maximum -- since we're going out there to

09 visit, we're just going to try and get a couple of

10 vans where we can take you on that's available. If

11 anyone is interested, if you let me know ahead of

12 time, then I'll take you to each of the areas that

13 we've addressed in the EE/CA at this point and the

14 potential areas for the removal. You won't be able to

15 go in walk in the areas. To do that, I need a little

16 safety submittal to be able to allow you to go in with

17 steel toed shoes, hard hats and that kind of stuff,

18 and I'll take you to the areas to show you what we're

19 looking at and what we've discovered in the areas,

20 what -- what is potentially still in the area to give

21 you an idea and a better mental picture of what we're

22 looking at.

23 BY MR. THOMPSON:

24 How long is that going to take?

25 BY MR. BOGAN:

00012

01 Can we have -- I can probably take you to all

02 the different sites within two hours, but we can go up

03 to three hours, if needed. It's just a matter of

04 driving from site to site.

05 BY MS. MCKINNEY:

06 And what I can do, if this will make it easier,

07 is over the course of this next week, call you after

08 you've had a chance to check your schedules to see

09 what date is going to work for best for your -- the

10 majority of you, if that would be okay.

11 Okay. I'll be calling you by the end of this

12 week to gauge which -- which of those two dates would

13 be better.

14 Okay. I'd like to turn the meeting over right

15 now to Wayne to follow up on a couple of questions

16 that were raised during the last meeting. We want to

17 get some information back to you.

18 BY MR. BOGAN:

19 Good evening. For those of you who don't know

20 me, I'm Wayne Bogan, Project Manager for the Corps of

21 Engineers.

22 A couple of questions came up at the last

23 meeting. I want to go through these right quick. One

24 was a definition of clearance to depth. Actually, my

25 presentation, which you've got, if you want to go

00013

01 through that, it's a more detailed definition of what

02 we're going to as far as clearance to depth in the

03 different areas that have been identified and stated

04 at this point.

05 I've checked on the availability of past

06 military records from Croft. I still haven't found a

07 definite answer to make sure we have everything, yet.

08 I'm still working on that issue.

09 Inventory of ordnance by people who have been

10 using the Park. I don't have any records to this

11 point. I'm still looking for that information. I

12 haven't found any records related to Army work that

13 was conducted in the Park in the 1970s. We're still

14 looking.

15 The next one is liability for RAB members, for

16 you yourselves and for the landowners. Again, I've

17 gotten a brief statement from our Office of Counselor,

18 our lawyers, attorneys. If Lincoln Blake will stand

19 up and -- he's from our Corps office in Charleston, he

20 will give you an update and mention that.

21 BY MR. BLAKE:

22 I'm Lincoln Blake, and this is essentially a

23 repeat of what's in the By-Laws. I think there's one

24 additional statement, but I -- but I will read it so

25 -- since I'm not an attorney, anyway.

00014

01 Basically, it says, What is the liability of the

02 RAB? It says, the RAB is an Advisory Board that

03 serves as a link between the Corps and the public.

04 The Corps makes decisions on final actions, and the

05 RAB takes no independent action that would incur a

06 liability.

07 However, the Corps cannot guarantee that anyone

08 would be free of litigation. People are free to sue

09 in this country.

10 BY MR. BOGAN:

11 Are there any questions about the liability that

12 you incur? Essentially -- yes, Dr. Lowry?

13 BY DR. LOWRY:

14 The question of liability of a landowner. I'm a

15 landowner. What is my liability in case someone is

16 hurt on my property due to these munitions is my first

17 question? Number two, when the insurance people find

18 out I have all this and won't insure me, what do I do?

19 BY MR. BLAKE:

20 I can't address all of that and one -- part of

21 that was a general -- was a general statement that I

22 can try to address, and I think what we may have to do

23 is we may have to get specific questions written down,

24 and we'll take them back to counsel, and they may not

25 answer -- they may not answer them all in detail, but,

00015

01 in general, it -- in general statement is what is the

02 liability of the property owners? This depends on

03 many factors, which includes the State law, cite

04 specific conditions, deed provisions and restrictions,

05 type of use of the property, insurance, etcetera, and

06 the bottom line is that certainly the landowners will

07 need to get some advice from their private counsel.

08 We will take your questions. I'm not saying

09 that they will all be answered, so that would be my

10 suggestion then. If there are specific legal issues,

11 if we get them written down and we'll get them over --

12 over to the attorneys.

13 BY MR. BOGAN:

14 And our attorneys didn't want to answer just a

15 general question. They want specifics. In other

16 words, I couldn't go in and say, "If I'm a landowner,

17 what is my liability?" You know, so -- you know,

18 under what circumstances are you talking about? Are

19 we talking about this year, I was there and somebody

20 came in and got hurt, or talking about where you

21 didn't know and you told somebody to go dig, and you

22 didn't know and you told somebody to go dig, so if

23 you've got specific questions, they want us to be able

24 come back and if you give me those, I'll write those

25 down and go back and get you a written answer to reach

00016

01 the specific question that you have as far as the

02 landowner's liability.

03 Not the exact answer I wanted for tonight, but

04 that's what they told me I had to give.

05 Any other questions on liability?

06 (NO RESPONSE)

07 BY MR. BOGAN:

08 The next one was a definition of a rocket. We

09 refer to rockets several times in the last meeting in

10 the reports.

11 If I can, this is Greg Bayuga. Greg is our

12 safety technician from Huntsville, and he can give you

13 a better definition of exactly what we're talking

14 about as far as the rockets here in Camp Croft.

15 BY MR. BAYUGA:

16 The rockets that were used in Camp Croft were

17 small shorter powder fired rockets. They were either

18 3.5 inches in diameter or 2.36 inches in diameter, and

19 I have some pictures back here at break if you want to

20 come back and look at them. They're all, you know,

21 two feet long or less, and I said, about 3 1/2 inches

22 or smaller.

23 So at the break, you can come and look and see

24 what the rockets looked like.

25 BY MR. HAMER:

00017

01 The maximum diameter was three inches, you said?

02 BY MR. BAYUGA:

03 3.5 inches.

04 BY MR. BOGAN:

05 3.5 inches.

06 BY MR. BLAKE:

07 And the purpose of those is, Greg?

08 BY MR. BAYUGA:

09 The general anti-tank weapon.

10 BY MR. LITTLEJOHN:

11 These were all in the Park, specifically, right?

12 BY MR. BAYUGA:

13 Right. Correct.

14 BY MR. BOGAN:

15 Okay. There's not a rocket issue I think every

16 day of a missile in an aircraft or anything of that

17 nature, or the bazookas that you see in the old World

18 War II movies.

19 Any other questions on the rockets?

20 (NO RESPONSE)

21 BY MR. BOGAN:

22 The next question that was brought up at the

23 last meeting was the daily number of accidents that

24 have occurred. I still haven't had any documentation

25 for other accidents than the two that were mentioned,

00018

01 and I still don't have any definite records. I'm

02 trying to like newspaper articles, hospital reports or

03 anything from the two that were mentioned at the last

04 meeting.

05 BY MR. BLAKE:

06 Wayne, for some of the people that are out in

07 the audience, you might mention when those two were

08 that we've got documented.

09 BY MR. BOGAN:

10 What we brought up at the last meeting were --

11 we have some secondhand or firsthand knowledge from

12 some of the RAB members and people that were in the

13 audience last time that there were two incidences

14 right after the Park -- the Army training facility

15 shut down around 1947 where supposedly one person was

16 killed on a flat bed near the peach orchard. Another

17 person was maimed, whether it was an arm or a leg. We

18 don't know for sure.

19 We don't know of any incidents of someone

20 getting hurt since that point. We're trying to track

21 down if anything else has happened since.

22 BY MR. THOMPSON:

23 Clary, was that the late '40s? The late '40s?

24 BY MR. CLARY SMITH:

25 Yes, it was in about a year or two years after

00019

01 they closed the Camp.

02 BY MR. BOGAN:

03 Any other questions on the tasks that I had from

04 the last meeting and tried to get answers for. We

05 have a request from the Board members themselves to

06 make presentations. I believe, Mr. Osborne and Dr.

07 Lowry, if you would at this time -- we can go with Mr.

08 Osborne first, would like to make a presentation, and

09 after you've given your presentation or statement,

10 I'll go into mine as far as the engineering evaluation

11 and what we're doing at this point.

12 BY MR. OSBORNE:

13 I have copies, if anybody wants to see these. I

14 can give them to the Board, and I'll read it as I

15 prepared it, and as we say it within our By-Laws and

16 so forth, this is my personal opinion.

17 "A few weeks ago the Challenger incident had its

18 10th anniversary. That was when NASA overrode the

19 advice from the Theikol Engineers that there was the

20 possibility of failure of the seals if this was

21 launched in the temperature range that they said the

22 seals may not hold. NASA launched the Challenger

23 anyway. It exploded, killing seven people.

24 Croft State Park is in the same category where

25 the danger is the same. The Director of the State

00020

01 Park wants to override the advice of Engineers that

02 there is a possibility that the ammo buried there is

03 dangerous and would -- and could explode with just

04 minor disturbances of the ground.

05 Also, taking the incident a few weeks ago when a

06 career Master Sergeant of the Army in Bosnia was

07 killed -- was killed when a piece of ammunition was

08 picked up and it exploded in his hand. What if that

09 State -- at Croft State Park this was your child, your

10 wife or other loved one?

11 My personal thought is that, 'Anyone that is

12 killed or maimed, due to negligence on somebody's part

13 to close the Park until cleaned up, should be charged

14 with a crime,' and, 'Anyone in state government that

15 has control over the State Park should be charged as

16 an accessory to the crime.'

17 I stop at what I think the crime would be but

18 will let you and your own mind think of what the crime

19 should be."

20 Thank you.

21 BY MR. BOGAN:

22 Thank you, Mr. Osborne. And Dr. Lowry?

23 BY DR. LOWRY:

24 No, thank you.

25 BY MR. BOGAN:

00021

01 Anyone else have anything you want to go over

02 before I start on my presentation?

03 BY MR. SMITH:

04 Wayne, let me ask you a question.

05 BY MR. BOGAN:

06 Yes, sir.

07 BY MR. SMITH:

08 Now Mr. Osborne at the last meeting said

09 something about the National Guard going in and

10 putting land mines and did not take them up, and

11 that's just seems unreasonable -- unreal -- it's not

12 in reality at all they would be placing land mines and

13 not taking them up.

14 I mean, it's -- to me, that breaks the law to

15 me. If you put land mines out that would detonate and

16 then you just leave them there on the property like

17 that.

18 BY MR. BOGAN:

19 Yes, sir.

20 BY MR. SMITH:

21 I mean, I -- I mean, I -- that -- that disturbed

22 me when he said something like that.

23 BY MR. BOGAN:

24 I understand what you're saying. From what I

25 know from being in the Army National Guard, generally,

00022

01 we don't work with live ammunition, except under

02 specific incidents. I'm not going to rule out that

03 there's the potential that did not happen. I continue

04 to look and see if anything did happen. Usually, what

05 I would think would have happened, there was an old

06 used practice mines. I'm going to consider Mr.

07 Osborne's statement that they used live mines as a

08 potential threat to consider the safety of the public

09 in and around what was the former facility and go

10 forward from that.